Future of SaabWorld and automotive forums in general

[Frank Wulfers]

We are pretty small when it comes to automotive forums. I have read a few comments about how these forums seem to develop through the years.

1) One enthusiast or a very small group starts forum
2) Forum becomes successful
3) As traffic and membership grows, site becomes valuable, both in content and financial revenue and worth
4) Original owner looses interest, moves on in life and sells forum
5) New owner buys forum for commercial business purposes
6) Members move on, forum slowly dies and becomes useless
7) Cycle starts again with step 1

I have no commercial plans for this site but my life can change in the future. People do move on. And at that point, what if some company offers me a crazy number? Should that be shared with the moderators and members?

Perhaps we can be the open-source of Saab forums and eventually set it up as non-profit organization? So no matter who runs it, nobody really owns it and can never be sold.

The Mozilla Mission

As a non-profit organization, we define success in terms of building communities and enriching people’s lives instead of benefiting shareholders. We believe in the power and potential of the Internet and want to see it thrive for everyone, everywhere.

Nonprofit organization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ownership is the quantitative difference between for- and not-for-profit organizations. For-profit organizations can be privately owned and may re-distribute taxable wealth to employees and shareholders. By contrast, not-for-profit organizations do not have private owners. They have controlling members or boards, but these people cannot sell their shares to others or personally benefit in any taxable way.

While they are able to earn a profit, more accurately called a surplus, such earnings must be retained by the organization for its self-preservation, expansion and future plans. Earnings may not benefit individuals or stake-holders.[3] While some nonprofit organizations put substantial funds into hiring and rewarding their internal corporate leadership, middle-management personnel and workers, others employ unpaid volunteers and even executives may work for no compensation.

Does anyone really care about this and am I thinking more about this than I should? We are far away from setting this up legally and I wouldn't really know where to start with this. And at this point, that's probably not even important yet.

Just some thoughts open for discussion.

[Frank Wulfers]

Moved to the Administration forum. Let's keep this a (somewhat) serious discussion that can benefit our community.

[Hirsch]

I wouldn't mind paying a monthly fee, along with other members, being a part-owner more or less. That way if an offer is made, the silent partners get a say, and if the decision is made to sell, the money is split between all members who have a vested interest in the site. Paying a monthly fee should be an option, not a requirement.

Same principal with advertising, I see no reason not have paying advertisements. Profits, after paying to maintain the site, are split as described above.

The profits could also be used to run a Lemons racing team.

[euromobile900]

Step 6 happened to Saab Central, in part because of step 5. The reason for each user leaving is different but some may have thought their hard work wasn't appreciated anymore or that they had no say in the matter.

IMO, step 6 was already brewing under the surface before step 5 was announced. I know that some of the newcomers to the SC classic 900 forum felt their efforts in making tutorials were underappreciated. It seemed like that forum had stagnated a bit, the same questions getting asked over and over again.

I like the non-profit idea. But how does the site make money to sustain itself, if there are no ads?

[Frank Wulfers]

I like the non-profit idea. But how does the site make money to sustain itself, if there are no ads?

Non-profit doesn't necessarily mean no income. The difference between for-profit and non-profit is with non-profit, (surplus) income goes towards the site and/or community. So at some point when we do have more money than we know what to do with, perhaps there is an opportunity for charity or sponsoring Saab events. Or something like this..

The profits could also be used to run a Lemons racing team.

The site still needs money for hosting and software. That can come from member donations or even corporate sponsorship. Pretty much the same as NPR (public radio). But ads is an option as well. I think the main goal for me is making this a site that is still going to be around 10 or 20 years from now.

[euromobile900]

Non-profit doesn't necessarily mean no income. The difference between for-profit and non-profit is with non-profit, (surplus) income goes towards the site and/or community and not in the pockets of the owners.

The site still needs money for hosting and software. That can come from member donations or even corporate sponsorship. Pretty much the same as NPR (public radio).

Right. So there we have the eternal question: donations or sponsors? What's less evil?

[euromobile900]

There used to be sponsors with small ads but they are not there anymore. I was planning to buy some tires so that SW might get $10. What happened?

Wulf posted an announcement about that here.

[Frank Wulfers]

Right. So there we have the eternal question: donations or sponsors? What's less evil?

Why not both? Donations from members and sponsoring by companies? Not as advertising but maintaining a list of sponsors (with brief mention of services and link) on the site. This way, you won't have advertising but you can still see which company supports our site and you can choose to support their business.

[SaabScott]

To set up SW as a legal entity (profit or non) is going to be a piece of work no one wants to get involved in.
You are going to have to have a corporate structure, likely directors and officers, by-laws.
And, on top of all of that, insurance (directors and officers insurance to protect them from possible legal action over whatever).

I don't have a suggestion as to what to do at the moment ... but keep this in mind.
No matter what SW turns into, and even if it remains true to the spirit in which it was set up, to manage "dividends" or anything like that is going to be a nightmare.
How (and who) is going to judge someone's worth?
And there is the old debate of quality vs. quantity ... who is to say which holds more value?
One response could save someone thousands of dollars in repairs ... is that response worth more than someone who shares little bits here and there?

[Frank Wulfers]

To set up SW as a legal entity (profit or non) is going to be a piece of work no one wants to get involved in.

I don't have a suggestion as to what to do at the moment ... but keep this in mind.

No disagreement there. Perhaps it something to explore when we have 1000s of members but not at this point. And there isn't an easy solution for that right now.

But at least we can make it a member-supported site instead of trying to make money with adverting. And as mentioned before, even that is not needed right now.

I just find it an interesting subject and I think many take for granted their contributions on forums like this will only be used for the greater good and not for commercial company profits.

[SaabKen]

Doesn't SaabsUnited take in members donations (or used to) ? I never paid attention to SU's posts about # traffic per month and the support SU conversations. AFAIK SU wasn't a legal entity when Swade owned and ran it.

Just a thought.

[Aero]

This one seems like a viable option to me. I don´t like ads on forums, and I think the site could go on with members´donations, but a list of sponsors looks more "solid". Relying on donations only you would be subject to the ups and downs of members willing or possibilities at a certain moment where the money might be needed.

So a mix of the two seems sensible.

[Shazam]

I like the idea of sponsors, but I don't think any company would go for it. What the company would want for their money is to have a advert that gets actual exposure. Not just a section you have to click several times to get to. I think if we had just a few small and well placed ads, that would bring in more money than a sponsor program. As of right now, I don't think either will bring in much because the site is currently so small.

[Frank Wulfers]

The funding part is really not important right now. It's more about how we can protect this forum from going the same way as the majority of other forums.

We used to have a Sponsors section. It's enabled again so you can see what it looks like. You basically click on one of those links and any sale is made on that website, they'll return a small percentage or set amount to our site. I think with tires through Tirerack, it is about $10-15 per set of tires. With this, you don't have to see ads all the time and you can support the site when you buy parts/tires etc. And they are products most of us are interested in. Not Chrysler, Cadillac or Ask a Saab Mechanic.

[Brewmaster]

Sponsorship can work very well for a small up-and-coming forum, as well for enterprising members with good ideas and fresh products

At [previous forum I moderated], it was pretty small when I started there. We set up a sponsorship program and not only got some decent-sized companies to jump on, we also had some forum members (me included ) that developed a product, sponsored the site and took off pretty well. Sponsorships can be win-win-win