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  1. #21
    Mike
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    Back to the Ruger 10/22 though. My dad has one that he bought way back when at a place called Fay's Drugs. It was basically a regional version Rite Aid or Walgreens that existed in the past, but eventually was bought out about 10 or 15 years ago. Well, he bought the gun probably 40 years ago and still has it. I dug it out the other day, and it still is sighted in. Amazing!

    They aren't the cheapest .22 rifles out there, but they are damn reliable, and nearly every store has them. Anyone who knows guns has heard or shot one, and they are just plain fun. A semi-automatic that can be modified any what way.
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  2. #22
    Mike
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch View Post
    The Remington 870 is the the Ford Taurus of the gun world. They're inexpensive, dead reliable and will take all kinds of abuse. Everyone should own an 870 at least once.
    I've known some pretty un-reliable Tauruses and I'm not sure everyone should own one at least once.
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  3. #23
    Jay
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wulfers View Post
    Just some random thoughts..

    I grew up in a country where guns are not very common and I think you need a special permit to own one. There are shooting clubs where you have to become a member but I think you need to leave your gun at the club all the time. It's not like you walk into a store, shop for groceries and a gun and be able to pick it up a few days later.
    Denmark is similar, you can own a handgun, but it stays at the gun club. Special permits are required to transport it in your vehicle, like if you were going to a competition. Rifles and shotguns were covered by different, less restrictive laws.

    I believe Switzerland requires all able bodied people keep a gun in working order of some kind in their home. Certain exclusions apply
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wulfers View Post
    I have lived in Northern Michigan for quite a while and there is absolutely no need for personal protection for me. I don't see the fun in hunting at all but I am not opposed to it either. There are too many deer in Michigan and I imagine hunting only puts a small dent in the deer population. And it is used for food anyways so there is no harm in that. I just couldn't kill an animal just for fun.
    I don't agree with hunting for sport either, only for food. You are correct about the deer population, but it's not just Michigan. I grew up on 136 acres of woods and hills, a mile from the nearest town. Now I live in the suburbs of a semi-big city, 10 miles from downtown. I see more deer now than I did the whole 18 years we lived in SE Indiana. I've had deer 3 feet from my front door, eating the tulip buds in the spring. I've seen a herd of about 7 or 8 walking down the main street in my subdivision at 3am. Many communities have sanctioned organized kills by hunters with crossbows because their deer population was getting to big. In these cases, the meat was donated to food pantry's.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wulfers View Post
    I often feel much safer in the US than in Europe. Crime seems to be increasing in Europe and opening of all borders does't make it any safer in Western Europe either. Assaults with knives is quite common so I think I would actually like to carry a gun if I would move back to Europe. At least more so than in the US.
    I'm glad I'm not the only one thats noticed this trend. I noticed it and began paying attention to it while living in Denmark. The break-up of the Soviet Union and the opening of the borders flooded western Europe with criminals and thugs the EU governments had never seen the likes of. London is one of the most dangerous cities in the world. By comparison the US still has more gun crime, simply because we have more guns. But the rise in knife crime is proof positive that banning guns just means the bad guys will use another method. i.e. It's the person, not the instrument used.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wulfers View Post
    I have been intrigued in guns and shooting and would like to try it some time. Where do you start? Do you just go to a place where they sell guns, buy one and start shooting anywhere? Do you have to do that at a shooting range or can you do it in your back yard? On public land? As you can tell, I am quite the gun noob. What gun would you start with? Hand gun or rifle? Dirty Harry, Jack Bauer or James Bond style? OK, I am just kidding with the last question..
    You live in Michigan, one of the easiest states in the country to get a gun and a concealed carry permit. I'd suggest starting on the NRA's website and find a local club or shooing range. Many shooting ranges will let you rent guns and give you the basics in gun safety. The benefits of renting guns is that you try many different guns, until you find one you like. An NRA certified club will offer an in-depth class, and upon completion of the class you'll get a certificate that satisfies the state and you can get a CCW permit. I believe Michigan is a "shall issue" state. Meaning that if you meet all the criteria, they have to give you a permit.

    As to where you can shoot legally depends on where you live. In the rural areas, you can pretty pretty much do what ever you want on your own land. Provided it doesn't endanger your neighbors. But the laws vary by state, so check out what MI's laws say. Some states require you to have a certain amount of land.

    For a first gun I'd suggest a Ruger. They are good, quality, reasonably priced handguns. Made in America also. But try a lot of different ones. Stick with names you know. Colt, Glock, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, Beretta.
    Last edited by Hirsch; 07 January 2012 at 04:31.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wulfers View Post
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  4. #24
    Jay
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shazam View Post
    I've known some pretty un-reliable Tauruses and I'm not sure everyone should own one at least once.
    OK, it's the Toyota Camry of the gun world. I was tyring to stick with an American theme.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wulfers View Post
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  5. #25
    Mike
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    I'm with you guys on hunting for sport. I don't find much sport in killing an animal. Maybe if it had a gun a could shoot back. I love venison though. Damn good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch View Post
    OK, it's the Toyota Camry of the gun world. I was tyring to stick with an American theme.
    I strongly recommend against the Camry!

    But Hirsch is right, stick to brands you know. Glocks are like Toyota pick ups. They just keep going and going and going and going. You can't hurt them! Sure you can find some Russian Baikal for less, but it won't last. If you buy a used gun, you can sell it for the same you bought it for, or even more. Used guns don't depreciate if you keep them in good condition.

    I'm currently in the process of filling for a pistol permit. You have to be 21 (just a couple days away), so I'm taking my time. When I do get a pistol, I've pretty much narrowed it down to a Glock 19 and a Walther PPQ. Checked out the 19, liked it, and checked out the PPQ's precursor--the P99-- and liked that. It seems like the PPQ combined what I like about the 19 and the P99, but I can't tell till I find a shop with one on the shelf.

    Gun show tomorrow for me... can't wait.
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  6. #26
    Jay
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    The Walther is a good gun, one I forgot to mention along with Heckler and Koch(H&K).

    Wulf, Dirty Harry used a .44 Magnum revolver, Jack Bauer used used a Glock, not sure which model. Bond carried a Walther PPK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wulfers View Post
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  7. #27
    Jay
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wulfers View Post
    I often feel much safer in the US than in Europe. Crime seems to be increasing in Europe and opening of all borders does't make it any safer in Western Europe either. Assaults with knives is quite common so I think I would actually like to carry a gun if I would move back to Europe. At least more so than in the US.
    Go down to Detroliet or Chicago and see how safe you feel!

    Cincinnati isn't a big city, the population that lives within the city limits is just over 330,000. The service area, which includes the western, northern and eastern suburbs, northern Kentucky and SE Indiana is about 1.5-2 million people. A cow-town(actually a pig town due to our history of Kahns butchering and processing plant) by Chicago standards.


    In my own personal experience there have been 2 occasions where I needed a gun and didn't have one and one instance where merely producing a gun would have diffused the situation. In the mid 90's my brother, his girlfriend and I were sharing a cool 2 bedroom, 2 story apartment in a shady part of town. The street was a short dead end and one guy owned all the property on the street. He rehabbed everything to near luxury standards. A little bit of heaven, right on the edge of hell. One fine spring day I decided to walk downtown and do some shopping. On the way home, less than an 1/8 of a mile from my front door, there were 3 guys standing on the corner of Vine and W. Clifton Ave. As I waited to cross the street one of them said something to me, to this day I have no idea what he said. Long story short, one of them followed me, his two buddies came up through the alley and joined the fight. They beat me pretty good, stole $50 and my wallet. For 4 years I had a black eye in my drivers license picture. A couple years later I got pulled over and the cop, after running my license, asked me if I'd ever used the alias Tyrone Washington. I told him no. He said "Yeah, you don't look like a Tryone." I told him what had happened and he erased the reference in the computer. This Tryrone guy used my social security number to try and get out of trouble at some point.

    The other time was in May of 2003. It was our 4th anniversary, my wife was pregnant and we were living downtown again. In a better part this time. My dad had given us tickets to a matinee performance at a local small theater and a yearly event called Taste of Cincinnati was going on downtown so we decided to walk. It was a 10 second decision on my part to not take my gun. The performance was a 2 man show, a guy and his buddy reminiscing on the guys wedding night and it had a little audience participation thrown in. My wife and I were seated at a small table right at stage level and at one pont during the show the lead character said "My bride to be is in the audience" and they shined the spotlight on my wife! The other actor came over and had her stand up. At the end of the show they stood everyone up that helped and thanked them, then they had me stand up and they thanked me for being in a good sport. The actor put his hand on the small of my back. Where my gun would have been if I were carrying it.

    On the walk home, at the corner of 13th and Sycamore right in front of the School for Creative and Performing Arts, a guy walked up next to me and asked me for the time. I told him it was 20 til 5. He said "20 til 5 huh?, You gonna drop your wallet for me?"

    Anybody want to guess what the first thought that went through my mind at that point was?

    I told him no and he said "No?" Like he'd never heard the word before. I looked up the street, decided I could beat the cars coming to the middle of the street and I'd worry about cars coming the other direction when I got to the middle of the street. Holding my wifes left hand inn my right hand I turned and walked directly across the street. There were cars coming the other direction but they stopped. I kept walking as the guy shouted obscenities at me and kept looking back to make sure he wasn't following me. When I got to the corner of 14th and Sycamore I turned around to get a good look at the guy to give the cops a good description. He shouted "YOU KEEP LOOKING AT ME AND I'M GONNA POP A CAP IN YO ASS!" A young black woman pushing a baby stroller down 14th turned around and walked the other direction in a hurry.

    My wife looked at me and asked what the guy said to me. I said "You have no idea what just happened? But you followed me across the street in front of traffic?" She said "Well, I figured if you did it, you probably had a good reason for it."

    I firmly believe in my right to defend myself and my family from any attack, with lethal force if necessary. The state of Ohio and many other states have adopted a "Castle Doctrine". Basically your house is your castle and you have no duty to retreat in any circumstance in your house. If you shoot and kill an intruder you will not be prosecuted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wulfers View Post
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  8. #28
    Mike
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    New York has an undefined Castle doctrine. From what I understand, in New York you still can use lethal force, but only to defend yourself or people in your house. Not to defend your property. But who knows... it's not defined!

    I don't get how states can have something less than that. If someone has broken into your house, they have clearly thrown their own safety out the window, and are most likely pretty damn determined not to be caught. So, most intruders are already prepared to hurt or even kill people that might be in the house. Why should the good citizen home owner do his best to run away while being attacked? Also, most people will already be cornered or have no-where to go in their house if they confront or get confronted by an intruder in the house. It's just common house layouts. Most rooms have one, maybe two entrances/exits. You can't retreat if they are blocked.

    Currently and luckily, I have never needed a gun. There has been one time where I would have felt safer knowing I had it, but luckily I didn't need it. Freshman year of college I was walking back to my dorm room after a late night in the library (2 or 3am). To get to my dorm room you had to walk on a massive terrace that has horrible lighting, weird architecture, and is over looked by nearly all the dorm rooms. This creates massive shadows and dark spots, but I walked it every day and night, and had never felt unsafe before. Walking back to the room on the terrace a huge guy and his little friend step out of the shadows as I walk by; the big guy in front of me cuts me off and stops me, and the little guy behind me. They get right up on me, and start asking if I want to buy anything. I say no thanks and try to keep walking. They stop me and say "But you gotta give us some cash," and I say "I don't have any... why would I bring cash to the library?" The little guy (who I could have taken assuming he didn't have a knife or something, and the big guy wasn't around) starts yelling "F--- you! F--- you man!" and shoves me. Then the big guy demanded I give him weed, and shoves me. Again, I said I didn't have any (I didn't). They start telling me "Get f---ed man!" and walk away. I ran the rest of my way into my building. If I had a gun, I probably wouldn't have pulled it until I was shoved, but luckily I never needed it. And you can't bring guns on college campuses. I believe that is all of USA, not just New York.

    I think when I get my permit, I won't carry unless I start having to travel through areas I know can be trouble, or just make me feel uneasy. Right now I live in a area with very low crime, and I'm surrounded by much easier targets. My apartment building has become a haven for elderly. I see it as "why pick out the college kid, when you could pick on someone that can't fight back?" Where my parents live is just a small town with virtually no crime. The last murder was in 2000, only 5 reported robberies last year... Of course, I'll only carry after I have taken a class or two with the gun, and spend quite a bit of time at the range.
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  9. #29
    Jay
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    Mike, you can thank NYC mayor Bloomberg for the draconian gun laws in NY state.

    From the Second Amendment Foundations website:




    [FONT=Times New Roman]An open letter to New York Mayor Bloomberg
    and Mayors Against Illegal Guns
    [/FONT]


    Dear Mayor Bloomberg:

    Recent news accounts have once again revealed an ugly truth about New York City: Through the adoption and enforcement of Draconian firearms regulations, the Big Apple is rotten to its core for treating a fundamental, constitutionally-protected civil right as a felony.

    These laws have recently entrapped a Marine Corps veteran, a female medical student, and the co-founder of the Tea Party Patriots organization. Their crime - at least in your jurisdiction - is that they traveled with firearms that are perfectly legal to possess anywhere else in the United States.

    Mayor Bloomberg, when you created Mayors Against Illegal Guns, you made it clear that New York style gun laws should apply across the nation. You also claimed your intent was not to infringe on Second Amendment rights, and that your proposals were "moderate."

    Laws that penalize American citizens for exercising a civil right are hardly moderate. They reduce your credibility as a public servant and reinforce your image as a demagogue reigning over a gulag where the Constitution does not apply, and citizens who cross the Hudson River become political prisoners for exercising their rights.

    Such nonsense provides the foundation for our latest book Shooting Blanks - Facts Don't Matter to the Gun Ban Crowd . Let's look at the people your city's gun laws have entrapped.

    • Marine Corps veteran Ryan Jerome is an Indiana resident with a permit to carry in that state. He had no criminal history until he tried to do the right thing by asking a security officer at the Empire State Building where he could check his firearm. He was arrested, jailed for 48 hours, and now faces a possible felony charge and up to 15 years in prison if convicted.

    It may shock you, Mr. Mayor, but millions of average citizens regularly carry firearms for their personal protection. This includes veterans like Mr. Jerome, whose service in the Marine Corps protected your right to rant about private firearms ownership as if it were a plague. The only disease we see is social prejudice against gun owners, and you have all the symptoms.

    • Meredith Graves of Tennessee traveled to New York for a job interview. Licensed to carry in her home state, she was with her husband when they stopped at the 9/11 memorial to pay their respects. When she saw a sign that indicated firearms were not allowed, she asked a security guard where she might check her pistol, carried for her personal protection. She was arrested, and now faces the same disgrace as Mr. Jerome, simply because, like him, she attempted to do the right thing as an honest citizen.

    Outside of New York City, women can legally arm themselves against rapists, robbers, stalkers and murderers, taking responsibility for their own safety. They know the police cannot always protect them. Because of her arrest, Ms. Graves' promising career may be ruined.

    • Tea Party Patriots Chairman Mark Meckler of California was arrested - as have been countless other law-abiding citizens - at the airport after declaring, as required by federal law, that he had a firearm in his luggage. He legally owns that firearm in his home state and has it for his personal safety.

    Recently, New York Councilman Peter Vallone, Jr. (D-Queens) was quoted by the New York Post observing, "Clearly, the laws are too strict here." He also admitted that by prosecuting people such as Meredith Graves, the city is "shooting our ownefforts in the foot and giving the rest of the country ammunition."

    Mr. Mayor, when your gun laws are so crazy that even a member of the city council is compelled to admit it, you're in trouble. When you perpetuate such laws and pretend they are sensible, you're in denial. When you defend laws that persecute honest citizens; laws that epitomize the term "infringement" and clearly violate the Constitution, you're in the Twilight Zone.

    New York is not a city-state, but part of the United States. The Constitution applies there as it does in the rest of the nation, from Fairbanks to Fort Lauderdale. It is time for you to admit that.

    Alan Gottlieb and Dave Workman


    Alan Gottlieb is founder of the Second Amendment Foundation. Dave Workman is senior editor of TheGunMag.com. They are co-authors of Shooting Blanks - Facts Don't Matter to the Gun Ban Crowd.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Wulfers View Post
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  10. #30
    Mike
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    Gun laws only prevent law abiding citizens from buying guys... they don't stop criminals.

    Just got back from the gun show... completely disappointed. Prices were crazy high, expect for a few LC Smith's, but those were out of my price range anyways. Ammo was stupid expensive. I only saw a few things that were actually cheaper than going to a gun store. I almost did walk out with a billy club though.
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