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  1. #1
    Jose Mateos
    it is what it is...... josemateos's Avatar
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    Is it really true that valve guide seals NEVER go bad on 2.3L?

    So my car smokes on startup it's much worse on short trips and the longer it sits. I brought this up before I checked the turbo and it's fine the Saab doctor check the turbo and they saw no signs of any oil the only thing I can think that it could be is the valve seals that's what all the signs point to but I've been told even on this form in a previous post that it very rarely/never happens. HAS ANYONE EVER REPLACED THERE VALVE EALS ON A 95 it's a 2001

    Any ideas what else it could be?

    I dropped the oil pan and installed the new PCVem update #6 it has 132k, I did compression test and its fine... I have been changing the oil regularly with synthetic 5 w 30.... it smokes worse the longer it sits like the oil is dripping into the motor also it's worse on short trips oddly any advice would be helpful. Thx!
    Smoke isn't real bad just a poof for about 3-6 seconds and it takes a couple seconds before it emits......seems mostly white possibly a slight blue but I'm 99% sure it's oil burning, but I don't ever really have to topoff ever.....so it can't be burning much...also installing new valve cover gasket and fuel filter tomorrow, not that that will help with this issue just a little oil under the DI cassette when I recently changed plugs...ANY HELP MUCH APPRECIATED I'VE SEARCH EVERYWHERE WITH NO LUCK AND I'M CURIOS IF ANYONE HAS HAD A VALVE JOB OR JUST REPLACED SEALS....Thx!

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  2. #2
    Frank
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    Never say never but 132K miles is relatively low for the 2.3t engine and this sounds like typical turbo seals going bad. Was the turbo ever replaced? If it wasn't or you don't have any records, it still is probably a good idea to replace.

    Bad valve seals would typically cause blue smoke during regular driving and I think mostly during heavy engine load.

    Perhaps try switching to a different oil. Mine seems to be happiest with 5W-40 A3/B3. What brand is the 5W-30 you're using?

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  3. #3
    Jose Mateos
    it is what it is...... josemateos's Avatar
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    Mobile 1 is all I use....not sure about the turbo as I recently bought the car to replace my passat, I did take a look inside of the turbo though and there is no sign of oil at all.....its crystal clean? I had thought about switching to 0w 40, but don't think that will help the smoking. To me it seems all signs pt to seals....I say that because I had an mx6 with bad seals that smoked on startup, but much worse....I was under the impression that a bad turbo would smoke blue while running....all I know for sure is the oil is dripping slowly because the longer it sits the bigger the cloud....thx for any advice.

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  4. #4
    Frank
    Saab Enthusiast nordwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by josemateos View Post
    I was under the impression that a bad turbo would smoke blue while running....all I know for sure is the oil is dripping slowly because the longer it sits the bigger the cloud....thx for any advice.
    The beginning of bad turbo seals going bad usually only causes blue smoke at start-up, not when the engine is running. If the turbo is failing altogether, you would see blue or white smoke all the time, not for a few seconds.

    When the car sits for a while, there isn't really any oil near the valve seals so how can it leak into the cylinders? And you mentioned it takes a few seconds for the blue smoke to appear. If the oil was already in the cylinders, there would be blue smoke right away. If it takes a few seconds, it points to the oil being outside the cylinder in the intake/turbo.

    Not all Mobil 1 oils are created equal, you should only use 0W-40 with the GM and A3/B3 spec for the 2.3 engine.

    I used to have a 2001 with the 2.3t engine (85K miles) and had exactly the same symptoms as you're having. Replacing the turbo with a re-manufactured one from a professional fixed the blue smoke at start-up.

    I checked the WIS and there aren't procedures for valve guides replacement. I imagine it involves taking of the cylinder head which doesn't seem like an easy task.

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  5. #5
    Jose Mateos
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    what brand oil do u suggest? I found rebuilt turbo on turbochargerpros.com for $395 but have too much other stuff I need to buy right now not changing it isn't going to hurty anything is it? It pisses me of that I took it to Saab Dr for that particular problem and they said it was fine they showed it to me and there wasn't any oil in it but not sure what else it could be

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  6. #6
    Saab Enthusiast photousa's Avatar
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    2003 Saab 9-5 Aero 2.3t Wagon HO Manual
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    Quote Originally Posted by josemateos View Post
    So my car smokes on startup it's much worse on short trips and the longer it sits. I brought this up before I checked the turbo and it's fine the Saab doctor check the turbo and they saw no signs of any oil the only thing I can think that it could be is the valve seals that's what all the signs point to but I've been told even on this form in a previous post that it very rarely/never happens. HAS ANYONE EVER REPLACED THERE VALVE EALS ON A 95 it's a 2001

    Any ideas what else it could be?

    I dropped the oil pan and installed the new PCVem update #6 it has 132k, I did compression test and its fine... I have been changing the oil regularly with synthetic 5 w 30.... it smokes worse the longer it sits like the oil is dripping into the motor also it's worse on short trips oddly any advice would be helpful. Thx!
    Smoke isn't real bad just a poof for about 3-6 seconds and it takes a couple seconds before it emits......seems mostly white possibly a slight blue but I'm 99% sure it's oil burning, but I don't ever really have to topoff ever.....so it can't be burning much...also installing new valve cover gasket and fuel filter tomorrow, not that that will help with this issue just a little oil under the DI cassette when I recently changed plugs...ANY HELP MUCH APPRECIATED I'VE SEARCH EVERYWHERE WITH NO LUCK AND I'M CURIOS IF ANYONE HAS HAD A VALVE JOB OR JUST REPLACED SEALS....Thx!
    Yes, I have had my valve seals replaced when I had my cylinder head rebuilt, but that's not your problem. Your problem is simply coolant or coolant vapor leaking into the cylinders and burning off. Like you've said, it's more obvious after the car has sat overnight, meaning it's giving the coolant time to leak into the cylinders. All you need to do is to re-torque your head bolts or replace the head bolts entirely, it's cheap and easy.

    You've already answered your questions with your own statement. The color of the smoke from the exhaust is white and you have no drop in your oil level. If you're valve seals were leaking, you would see Black smoke and your oil level would drop. If you cruise around these forums for years, you rarely if ever hear someone say they need valve seals, it's just something you replace when you rebuilding the head, because the seals are cheap. Saab valve seals must be really durable, because you never hear of them causing an issue. If I were you, I would look at my coolant level, it's probably dropped, you will also want to make sure that your coolant reservoir level sensor is working. if you haven't already changed the coolant bypass valve, you might want to do that as well, because they fail at around 100K miles and when they fail, it can cause an overheat situation which can warp your head. If you see oil under the DI cassette it may be because your cylinder head cover needs a new gasket, or if it has a new gasket, It could have been installed incorrectly, pinching it and causing a leak. Make sure you are using the right plugs, only use the plugs suggested in your manual, most people mess this one up. I do not believe your turbo is the problem.

    Regarding oil, I'm now using Pennzoil 5W-30 Full Synthetic, "Euro L" which meets A3 B3 specs. I also run an Amsoil Engine flush with each oil change at 5000 miles or 1 year, whichever comes first. This year, for the first time, I'm going to try a Mopar Combustion Chamber Cleaner ( MCCC Piston Soak ), prior to my oil change. I know from my head gasket job that I have carbon build up on my piston crowns and am curious as to how it will change things once the carbon has been blown off...

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    Last edited by photousa; 09 November 2012 at 00:17.
    2003 Saab 9-5 Aero B235R
    Sport Wagon 2.3T HO Manual
    140,627 Miles

  7. #7
    Jose Mateos
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    man, thank you so much I appreciate the advice I bought a new valve cover gasket I was going to put on this weekend I think you're talking about the head gasket though correct? I'll tighten the head bolts when I do the valve cover gasket it's been driving me crazy and I known that is not my turbo and it's also not the valve seals according to everyone else so you answer my question I'm very very much appreciate it thanks so much sorry about the bad grammar I'm using voice texting on my phone

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  8. #8
    mdb99@bellsouth.net
    Oh! I Get It Now Mike Brennan's Avatar
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  9. #9
    Frank
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    The same information of the TSB is in the WIS. Added here for future reference: http://saabworld.net/f29/retightenin...m98-m01-27258/

    It can be difficult to figure out if smoke is blue (oil), white (coolant), black or a combination of these. If the cylinder head bolts aren't tight, it still doesn't seem to make sense how coolant can make its way into the cylinder when the engine is turned off. If the engine is running, the cooling system is pressured and there is a vacuum in the cylinders then yes.

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  10. #10
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    It will get in ,past the gasket from coolant system pressure. Be sure you look at the #4 cyl head bolt in the rt ft spot. it is almost always loose,whyI dont know. 132k isnt much at all.blue/white on start is most likely turbo as stated before. black is fuel. Does it miss/run rough on cold start?

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