Gasoline thread

[Dave T]

There's lots to write about gasoline! Here's a start.

I always use Chevron but about once every year or two when the tank is low, I switch to Shell V-Power for several consecutive tanks. This way the Chevron with Techron keeps the engine clean and, if there is any Techron residue, it might be washed away with V-Power.

Shell premium has five times the minimum EPA required amounts of nitrogen V-Power compound compared to two time the EPA mandated amount for regular octane Shell gas. To reduce mixing but use the recommended 90 octane, I wait until the tank is not very full of Chevron then fill with a mix of premium and regular Shell to reach 90 octane. After about two tankfuls, I use straight Shell V-Power (premium).

Now, I think that my nerdy anti-mixing behavior is not necessary. I read this in the Top Tier gas website. Top Tier is an organization which allows use of the Top Tier name if gas meets certain standards. Top Tier Gasoline

If I (station owner) co-mingle my fuel tanks that use different fuels with different TT certified detergents, do I need to provide performance test data on the combination of those additives?

That depends. If both of the fuels should contain the TOP TIER detergent treat rate, that would mean the test data has been provided. However, just using a TOP TIER certified additive does not mean the fuel marketer is using it at the TOP TIER treat rate which passed all of the required engine and fuel injector performance testing. Most likely you would be asked to show gum data for the fuel that you want to declare as TOP TIER and use for completing the performance testing.

This suggests to me that it is ok to "make" "Chevron-like" gas. Chevron says it uses twice the amount of Techron as the EPA mandated standards and meets Top Tier standards. Tesoro, which sells to a lot of discounted supermarket and independent stations, says that it won't use more than the EPA mandated amounts of anti-deposit additive because people won't pay a penny more for gas than at a competitor's station. Chevron says that using Techron in a bottle (20 oz to 20 gallons) results in 10 times the amount of Techron as in Chevron gas. 2 oz. to 20 gallons of base gas would equal Chevron gas. Since Tesoro uses only the minimum amount, adding 1 oz. of Techron in a bottle to Tesoro gas would create "Chevron-like" gas. The Top Tier quote supports the idea that mixing gas with different additives works. The additives don't bind to one another and become inactive.

[Dave T]

Some quotes from articles:

Can discount gas crimp your ride?
Some gasoline probably is better. There is, in fact, a rating system that's supposed to identify the best gasolines. Called Top Tier, it's meant to steer motorists toward fuels that have strong concentrations of detergent additives to keep engines free of what even technical-minded people call "gunk." But even automakers who sponsor the Top Tier system say some brands not on their list are high-quality. (ref. 1)

A few years ago, "All the manufacturers were having fuel-injector problems within a few months" after a new car was sold, says Gary Herwick, a mechanical engineer who's head of Michigan-based Transportation Fuels Consulting. He worked at General Motors at the time of the problems. He says "it's fair to say" that some automakers' fuel systems weren't the best, but he believes skimpy additive packages should get most of the blame. Refiners "were minimizing costs, and we got down to the ragged edge" of EPA-required levels of additives. (reference 1)

Tesoro, which retails gasoline through 800 of its stations and distributes fuel to Wal-Mart and others, views the detergent issue as a gimmick. Tesoro doesn't put in additional additives because "our customers are price shoppers," says Senior Vice President Lynn Westfall. (ref. 1)

Citgo Petroleum, the Venezuelan brand, is another big name that's not Top Tier. Using stronger additives costs more, and even if it's just a penny a gallon, "We don't see a corresponding benefit to our customers of similar magnitude. We want to provide quality products to the consumer at the best value," spokesman Fernando Garay says. (ref. 1)

"People will switch for a penny. It might not make financial sense, but they'll do it," says Jeff Lenard, spokesman for the National Association of Convenience Stores.(ref. 1)

"Gasoline is fungible. Marathon can market Shell or Mobil gas, for example," says Darlington, the consultant and fuels expert. Marathon stations "normally get it from a Marathon refinery, but if something happens to a Marathon refinery and there's a pipeline where they can get Mobil and market it as Marathon, that's the way it is," he says. The substitute fuel might contain a different additive package, but it's supposed to be at least as effective as what the station normally sells. (ref. 1)

Q. What is the difference between Chevron with Techron at the pump and Techron Concentrate Plus in the bottle?
A. The principal difference is additive concentration and rate of deposit clean-up. Chevron gasolines with Techron over multiple fill-ups will help clean deposits on intake valves and minimize harmful combustion chambers deposits. When added to a full tank of gasoline, a bottle of Techron Concentrate Plus results in an additive concentration roughly 10 times stronger. (ref. 2)

If I co-mingle my fuel tanks that use different fuels with different TT certified detergents, do I need to provide performance test data on the combination of those additives?
That depends. If both of the fuels should contain the TOP TIER detergent treat rate, that would mean the test data has been provided. However, just using a TOP TIER certified additive does not mean the fuel marketer is using it at the TOP TIER treat rate which passed all of the required engine and fuel injector performance testing. Most likely you would be asked to show gum data for the fuel that you want to declare as TOP TIER and use for completing the performance testing. (ref. 3)

Q. Is Techron just a more diluted version of Techron Concentrate Plus?
A. No. While both use a polyether amine-based chemistry, each is optimized for its particular application. (ref. 2)

Marie Valentine, the Senior Principle Engineer, Vehicle Regulation and Certification Engineering, Toyota Technical Center, said the amount of detergents in Top Tier gas is about twice what’s required by the EPA. However, it can vary depending “on the base gasoline and the chemistry of the detergent additive.” (ref. 4)
(Also see next paragraph)...

Express Convenience is offering a new fuel called Express Excelerator, which has been approved to use the designation of a "top-tier" fuel....Express Excelerator detergent gasoline uses twice the amount of EPA-approved cleaning detergents found in ordinary gasoline (ref. 5)

Therefore, one might buy cheaper gas and double the amount of additives by adding 1 oz. of concentrated Techron per 20 gallons of cheaper fuel. (My conclusion). Mixing additives does not hurt per reference 3.

References
1. Can discount gas crimp your ride? - USATODAY.com
2. Car Care FAQs
3. Top Tier Gasoline
4. Which Gas Stations Sell the Best Quality Gasoline? | AutoGuide.com News
5. Express Convenience Centers Offers Top-Tier Fuel

Still, I have a favorite Shell and Chevron station that I like to buy from.

[nordwulf]

It is so difficult to figure out what's technical proof or marketing speak. And do you really notice a difference as a car owner or is it mostly between your ears? The only way to really test if Top Tier gas is better for your car is to have two exact same cars driving the same roads. But that's not feasible of course.

At some places in the UP of Michigan (namely Citgo), they sell ethanol-free premium gas. I got surprisingly good gas mileage when I used that and I wished I see it more places. There are some gas stations that sell in my home town but is mostly used at special pumps for off-road vehicles or boats. Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

Also discussed here: http://saabworld.net/f15/ethanol-gasoline-petrol-26152/

I try to use well-known brands when I fill up but am not loosing sleep if I have to use another brand. My main motivation to pull into a certain gas station is how clean it is and new/old it looks. I'd rather fill up at a brand new Meijer brand gas station (grocery chain in Michigan) than a grubby and old Shell gas station. Second consideration is if I know the gas station and if they have good coffee or not. Holiday, for example, has excellent coffee and many times they don't even charge for it, even when I am not getting gas there.

[Pbuck1]

Recently compiled the components for many different octane boost, gas additives/'cleaners", diesel add's (since there are a few 'oil burners' out there) and engine flush products. It's all in a excel spreadsheet and I'll have to work on converting it to a jpeg image and will post - next week.

[Gepe]

What you mean "oil burner" - at least it's meant to burn it!
Some cars here are meant to run on petrol but when you see the exhaust smoke it really makes you wonder!

But, seriously it would be good to have a comparison - may be able to add some comments for the UK.
TTFN

[Paamf]

I use either Sunoco or Mobil 93 octane and have not experienced any performance issues. I started Thu regimens when I had a GTI which got 32mpg combined driving and now in my 2010 9-3 XWD which has been getting 26 mpg and runs great. No additives either. I tend to be conservative and stay with what works for me until it doesn't. I have noticed there is a period of poorer mileage when the suppliers switch over from summer to winter blend and vice versa.

[Pbuck1]

What you mean "oil burner" - at least it's meant to burn it!
Some cars here are meant to run on petrol but when you see the exhaust smoke it really makes you wonder!

But, seriously it would be good to have a comparison - may be able to add some comments for the UK.
TTFN

It is a reference to diesel.

[Gepe]

Noted - as my TTid is.
Have a nice weekend, just watching the end of the Commonwealth Games from Glasgow - most interesting to see parts of a city I know from different viewpoints that are not normally available or open to the public.
TTFN

[nordwulf]

Warning: information below may upset our European Saab friends where petrol costs an arm, a leg or possibly both...!

I was surprised to see the drop in gas price in the last few weeks. Looks like it has been the lowest in four years.

Lowest August gas prices in four years - Aug. 1, 2014

Diesel is still more expensive than premium, one of the reasons diesel cars will probably never be a huge success in the US.



Regular is about EUR 0,66 per liter or CAD 0.92 per liter.
Premium (Super +) about EUR 0,72.

[Paamf]

That looks like a Mobil pump.....93 or high test is $4.05 a gallon and diesel is $4.15 where I live in the southeastern part of the state. At the Sunoco station it is $3.95 for 93 and $4.05 for diesel. Gas stations due not sell a lot of diesel so the price is higher. It's the same price as home heating oil and up here you use a lot of that over the long winter.