Not getting fuel

[edwardc053]

1999 9-3 turbo 2.0, (CEL's multiple cylinder misfire, bank system too rich, Idle Air Control System.) 250,000 miles on car, not original engine miles on it unknown. This is a long convoluted story. When I test power at the fuel pump, I don't get a light when I turn the key on like I'm supposed to. When I crank the engine no power for a couple of seconds, then I get a light. I've replaced the fuel pump, the cps, idle air control valve, a couple of suspect hoses. When I put gasoline in the cylinders car starts, when I run a cable from the battery directly to the fuel pump it turns on. I've checked the fuel pressure regulator it seems ok, and there's gas in the rail. Does this weird delay in power to the pump tell you anything? I don't have any meters, so I only know if things are working or not working not how much. Please help!

[9-3 Aero]

The delay is actually the missing operation of the relay for build up pressure for the pre-injection, before the engine control management module (ECU) receives pulses from the CPS, and keeps the relay "closed". The fuel pump relay is controlled, for both "phases", by the same wiring, i.e. grounding the relay.

As you are aware of, does this "pressure build up phase" last for 1- 2 sec., and is (should be) activated by the ECU when the ignition is turned from "OFF" to "ON", given the car is mobilised, which it is as the starter motor cranks. As I am an ECU programming illiterate, do I not know on what conditions, other than ignition "ON", the ECU will (or will not) ground the fuel relay with regard to the "build up phase". Other than: Could it possibly have something to do with "(CEL's multiple cylinder misfire, bank system too rich, Idle Air Control System.)", which could make the ECU to prevent starting the engine? Are those faults still present - and if so, did the culprit with the fuel relay start in conjunction with them?

The ground output from the ECU could maybe be checked at the fuel relay socket, given you have a multimeter at hand.

As I've seen relays acting i many peculiar ways, could one imagine the fuel relay gotten "slow", with regard to closing when grounded. The output from the ECU is (only) 1 - or 2 sec., and a relay does normally respond in matter of millisec. What you could do, to rule this "fantasy" out, is to swap the fuel relay ("I") with the starter relay ("K") and see whether or not the "build up phase" resumes. This as you didn't say the fuel relay is replaced.

How did you run the cable from the battery to the fuel pump to turns it on?

The reply given on information pertaining to the B204 engine, what is the one in question?

[edwardc053]

Thank you for the response!
because the car broke down so far from home it's hard to get to it to work on it. (It's at a Clarion hotel parking lot, they've been awesome about letting me leave it there)I will check the cels again when I get back. And yes the culprit with the fuel relay started in conjunction with them. When I am able to get back to the car in a couple days I will be able to get more info. I don't know what kind of engine except the car is the standard version for that year. I did actually check the relay when I first broke down, I have one with the cover off, and used it to be sure power was getting that far. And listened for the clicking on the one I have in there. It doesn't occur to me if I was experiencing the delay with the cap less relay or not. To check the fuel pump I simply ran wires from the battery of another car I pulled up next to it. I made an access hole for it when I replaced it a couple weeks earlier. This all began when I was driving on the highway when all at once it was as though someone cut the throttle cable. Gas pedal had no effect. When I came to a stop I stalled. The car would start only if I did not touch the gas. If I touched the accelerator at all the engine stalled. I was having trouble with the car before, and that's why I replaced the fuel pump. That was because the power plug in to it was damaged. I was having a problem with no start that was solved by jiggling the wires there. I noticed the power in wire was cooked on the old one when I replaced it. I mention that because once before all this trouble I had experienced the can't touch the gas or stall problem. It went away by itself after I jiggled the wires and I had assumed it was a weird manifestation of the bad plug-in problem. Recently, I also ran a new set of wires from my fuse panel to the fuel pump to be sure it was getting power at all when I turned the key, because I'm by myself there and I can't quite hear if the pump is turning on at all. Again thank you for the response, I will have more info soon.

[edwardc053]

Just to clarify, car would start when I first broke down. I was able to get off the highway in first gear with the engine just idling. Once I got off the highway it would not start at all.

[9-3 Aero]

Wondering if the throttle body could be in question here too - just wondering .

[edwardc053]

Excuse my ignorance, the throttle body is good, I think, because when I pull the lever the butterfly opens. Is there more to it than that? I'm guessing yes. When I got back to the car I checked the relay, clicking as soon as the key turn, no delay, no start either. Someone was supposed to meet me with code reader and voltage meter never showed. Any way tried the switching with the relays no luck. But hearing a click as soon as the key turns but still getting delay... ? Means weak current to relay? Am I possibly hearing another circuit closing? Is the fuel pump relay the only one activated on that panel when key is turned? Seems like the CPS though I replaced it. I'm gonna buy my own voltage meter, would you know what the cps should be putting out? And how to test it? I really appreciate your help. Thank you!

[edwardc053]

Did some homework. My car is a five-speed, no TCS. It's a Trionic 7. Read about it on Wikipedia. Should be. It's not the original engine in the car. From what I understand if it was the throttle position sensor it would have thrown that code. (unlike the CPS) The symptoms sure sound like it though from what I've read. From some of the other stuff I've read seems like I might as well be working on the space shuttle. Back to throwing parts at it I guess.

[9-3 Aero]

Ignorance, what ignorance? :)

“But hearing a click as soon as the key turns but still getting delay... ?”: In your first post you stated that when you tested the power at the fuel pump, you didn’t get light until after a couple of seconds. I am still thinking that this is pointing towards the culprit, as it is supposed to light immediately for a second or two when the key is turned to “ON”. It’s mandatory for the fuel line and – rail build up pressure. No pressure = no start. Once you make sure that the this relay does not operate for the 1 – to 2 seconds, you have one solid evidence of where to start troubleshooting. If the relay is not operating, I think faultcodes are needed to point towards why the ECU does not ground it in this phase, like it obviously does when the CPS is sending engine speed signal (pulses).

“Means weak current to relay?”: Not to the relay coil, as you apparently have heard the other relay clicking in this position (?). And current through the contact, for the fuel pump, is the equal for the build up pressure for the pre-injection phase, as when closed as a function of CPS signal is making the ECU grounding the relay.

“Am I possibly hearing another circuit closing?”: Pull the fuel relay and turn the ignition switch to “ON”.

“Is the fuel pump relay the only one activated on that panel when key is turned?”: At least relay “E” (#21), Ignition lock, operates when the key is turned to the “ON” position. You could pull this one (a part of power distribution goes down with it) and the fuel relay and listen for clicking. If none, install fuel relay and try again.

“Seems like the CPS though I replaced it.”: I don’t think so, as you got the car started when putting gasoline in the cylinders, meaning the CPS was sending pulses to the ECU which then grounded – or kept the fuel relay grounded (operated).

“I'm gonna buy my own voltage meter, would you know what the cps should be putting out?”: The output voltage is 5 – 10 VAC at idling speed. The resistance is 540+/-55 ohm at 68F for the T5 engine and 860+/-90 ohm for the T7.

“And how to test it?”: Pulling the plug will be ok for the resistance measurement, however engine idling is a problem, if the fuel relay is not closed.

I’m still not sure which engine is in question. The engine is given by the letter of the eight character of the VIN. However, given it is not the original one, the code may not apply.

[edwardc053]

If any body is still listening, (it's been a while). Bought a code reader and car is now throwing no codes. Says CEL "should be, or is, (which it is)" on. I even put gas in the cylinders so it could idle for a couple seconds and still no codes. As stated earlier, initially CELs were, bank system too rich, idle air control system and multiple cylinder misfire. I'm wondering if this is because car has not been running and so can no longer generate codes. Battery has been unplugged. It is giving a lot of emission data but seems to be irrelevant? just systems named with comp. or inc. following them meaning checks completed or not (I think.) What does it all mean?!