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  1. #21
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    Well,
    I just bought one of the MCUMall universal EPROM programmers. I loaded up Ragnar's LH22Edit. I opened up a stock fuel map and Raul's fuel map for 34lb injectors and compared the two. I have some Bosch 32lb EV6 injectors with EV1(this is what our Saabs use) electrical connectors. I calculated the diference for each value between the stock map and Raul's map. I divided that by 13. The stock injectors are 21lb injectors: 34 - 21 = 13. This gave me the per lb difference in Raul's map. I then multiplied that number by two and added it to Raul's number. Why add back? The lower the injector flow rate, the higher the number of cycles needed. Doing this for each value gave me a starting place for a 32lb injector fuel map. I am still putting my engine back together, but once I begin testing I'll be sure to post back my findings.

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  2. #22
    Sam Carlson
    Tutorial Bot euromobile900's Avatar
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    '90 900 LPT with a flat-nose conversion
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    I opened up a stock fuel map and Raul's fuel map for 34lb injectors and compared the two. I have some Bosch 32lb EV6 injectors with EV1(this is what our Saabs use) electrical connectors. I calculated the diference for each value between the stock map and Raul's map. I divided that by 13. The stock injectors are 21lb injectors: 34 - 21 = 13. This gave me the per lb difference in Raul's map. I then multiplied that number by two and added it to Raul's number. Why add back? The lower the injector flow rate, the higher the number of cycles needed. Doing this for each value gave me a starting place for a 32lb injector fuel map. I am still putting my engine back together, but once I begin testing I'll be sure to post back my findings.
    I knew there was something funny about Raul's map! Googling this, I've seen lots of people say that it makes the car run rich on idle, but nobody seems to have any idea why. The adding sounds like a key thing he was leaving out! I like the way you think, Eddy! I think SaabWorld just officially surpassed ECUProject as the leader in LH tweaking.

    I am sorry I haven't really done much since I last updated this thread. I kind of got sidetracked thinking about how I could do Trionic and get better mileage too! But I know a lot about the LH tweaking process, so if anybody has any questions I would be glad to answer!

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    Last edited by euromobile900; 01 December 2011 at 16:41.
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  3. #23
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    1988 C900 T16
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    Thanks....
    I'm hoping that eventually I can get better mileage by using these particular injectors. The EV6 style injector is a combination pintle/disc injector with four holes. The stock injectors are pintle, single hole injectors. The stock style of injector fires a larger, laser-like stream of fuel into the chamber. It's rather pathetic at fuel atomization. I'm hoping that the newer four hole design will give me the ability use even less fuel at all of the controlled ranges given the significantly better atomization. IIRC, this is the style injector the new Eco-Boost Fords are using.

    Anyway, it's a theory..... We'll see what happens. I know the LH system is limited, but I think it will be fun to see how far I can safely push those limits.....

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  4. #24
    Sam Carlson
    Tutorial Bot euromobile900's Avatar
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    '90 900 LPT with a flat-nose conversion
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddy View Post
    Thanks....
    I'm hoping that eventually I can get better mileage by using these particular injectors. The EV6 style injector is a combination pintle/disc injector with four holes. The stock injectors are pintle, single hole injectors. The stock style of injector fires a larger, laser-like stream of fuel into the chamber. It's rather pathetic at fuel atomization. I'm hoping that the newer four hole design will give me the ability use even less fuel at all of the controlled ranges given the significantly better atomization.
    Right, I've heard that too, but I didn't know how much it mattered. I think I have a set of 4 Trionic injectors in my parts bin somewhere. I wonder if it's worth it for a N/A. I'd pay you a few bucks for an EPROM flash, if you think you can do it for a N/A car. I want to hear how yours goes first.

    IIRC, this is the style injector the new Eco-Boost Fords are using.

    Anyway, it's a theory..... We'll see what happens. I know the LH system is limited, but I think it will be fun to see how far I can safely push those limits.....
    The Ecoboost Fords are direct injection, so I guess their injectors would have to be pretty good at atomizing! The specs I found say 65micron droplets, and the injectors have six holes, so they are WAY better than even the T5 injectors!

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  5. #25
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    Six holes? Wow.... That's really pushing it. No forgiveness for a dirty fuel filter in that system.

    This is my first attempt at tweaking LH so we'll see how it goes. The car is a spare, so I can take my time and get it right....

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  6. #26
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    EDIT: Here's a link to a page that might be a little easier to read than what I posted here....
    http://www.eddyslist.com/list/fuel%20numbers.htm


    Ok.... So I have finally gotten around to spending some more time on this. I decided to dig a little deeper. I wanted to come up with something more than just adjusting Raul's map for a per lb difference in injector flow.

    So I'll lay out what I came up with. It's pretty straight forward. LH2.2 tweaking seems to be on it's way out in favor of MS and T5 anyway, so not a lot of reason to hold back. Here's what I have and my reasoning. And suggestions and comments welcome.... If I seem to way off here, please let me know....

    I'm thinking this is a more elegant starting map. I'll then use a knock light and AFR meter to begin hunting for a stoichiometric balance.....


    Stock Map
    RPM
    6096 466 550 570 580 590 600 600 620 620 620 610 610 572 566 511 502
    5578 444 500 520 520 528 528 528 591 651 682 649 603 602 603 529 487
    4766 418 480 490 510 518 520 529 530 549 550 541 553 553 615 574 549
    4161 321 356 431 441 469 510 513 520 538 537 540 539 537 561 573 555
    3692 315 340 347 397 434 463 485 501 501 513 513 520 532 531 539 564
    3318 307 325 332 374 412 441 464 487 503 515 515 523 530 535 544 565
    2759 297 321 316 356 380 416 434 469 495 515 517 515 532 538 537 547
    2362 297 316 308 349 370 409 424 461 487 500 500 507 532 522 518 550
    2064 304 304 304 336 356 394 413 455 480 487 492 507 513 543 538 548
    1833 294 280 299 326 347 368 401 424 453 476 501 508 508 526 515 515
    1649 296 270 275 315 334 355 367 399 438 476 494 506 498 513 528 513
    1425 296 265 275 307 315 342 363 388 424 445 481 505 512 521 518 520
    1214 275 259 269 298 310 317 329 359 378 429 484 492 488 508 502 514
    936 282 259 257 272 281 293 307 321 339 373 411 430 443 475 488 485
    665 323 315 311 259 256 262 268 275 290 309 337 376 386 443 451 452
    502 381 365 346 307 280 273 281 285 294 301 328 336 339 357 421 383
    Massflow% 0 6.25 12.5 18.75 25 31.25 37.5 43.75 50 56.25 62.5 68.75 75 81.25 87.5 93.75 100
    50% larger fuel injectors so cut bottom cycles to 66% of original value - preboost #'s
    Running misu td05 - boost comes on at 2000 RPM's - turbo runs out at 5500RPM's
    When looking at the stock boost meter, you can divide the distance between idle and top of the red into thirds. Yellow, boost, should begin at approximately 33% mass airflow.
    Since I'm running 50% more fuel and 100% percent more air, I want to calculate for "equal to stock" fuel to 33%(31.25) on the map and rise to 200% fuel flow at 100% massflow. (Note: I'm running double the air flow.) Based on larger injectors, should be 133% of stock number.
    Explain: Say stock fuel flows at a number 6. I added 50% more flow which puts it at 9. Getting the flow 9 dwn to 6 (for idle up through pre boost) I want it to flow 66% of 9 which equals 6.
    At the top end, since I have doubled mass air flow, I want fuel to flow at 200% of stock(6x2 = 12) for the highest number in each RPM row. (Numbers in BLUE below) I added 50% bigger injectors so base flow is 9.
    So I need to adjust fuel map numbers to 133% of base flow. 9 + 33%(3) = 12. Make sense?
    I then count the columns between the highest value in each row, subtract 66(last preboost value % ) from 133 (highest boost value %) to get 67. I then divide 67 by the number of columns to get the percent change needed to evenly rise from 66% flow to 133% flow.
    For the values past the highest value in the row where the highest value isn't at 100% massflow, I clculate the percentage drop between each column and starting with the first value past the highest value, change per percentage.
    RPM
    These calculated @ 66% of stock # % Change increase per column preboost to full boost.
    * 6096 308
    363 376 383 389 528 660 825 825 825 809 809 761 753 677 663 22.3
    * 5578 293 330 343 343 349 419 417 541 780 907 862 811 811 811 722 664 13.4
    * 4766 276 317 323 337 342 382 427 467 525 567 597 651 692 818 769 738 7.4
    * 4161 212 235 285 291 310 371 407 448 499 534 574 609 642 709 762 739 6.7
    * 3692 208 224 229 262 286 334 379 422 452 495 526 565 610 641 684 750 6.1
    * 3318 203 215 219 247 272 318 362 410 454 496 528 568 608 646 690 752 6.1
    * 2759 196 212 209 235 251 300 339 395 447 497 530 559 610 650 682 728 6.1
    * 2362 196 209 203 230 244 295 331 388 440 482 513 551 610 631 657 732 6.1
    * 2064 201 201 201 222 235 284 323 383 433 469 504 551 588 656 683 729 6.1
    * 1833 194 185 197 215 229 270 324 374 433 489 553 598 636 700 686 686 7.4
    * 1649 195 178 182 208 220 258 291 344 406 474 524 571 596 648 702 680 6.7
    * 1425 195 175 182 203 208 247 284 327 383 429 493 548 587 629 658 692 6.1
    * 1214 182 171 178 197 205 229 257 302 341 414 496 534 560 614 637 684 6.1
    * 936 186 171 170 180 186 213 244 276 315 371 436 485 530 595 649 645 6.7
    * 665 213 208 205 171 169 189 209 232 262 298 345 408 443 535 572 601 6.1
    * 502
    252 241 228 203 185 198 223 245 273 300 348 383 405 451 560 510 6.7
    Massflow%
    0 6.25 12.5 18.75 25 31.25 37.5 43.75 50 56.25 62.5 68.75 75 81.25 87.5 93.75 100

    Edit:

    Stock Fuel Map

    Link to image: http://www.eddyslist.com/list/ebay1/stockmap.tiff

    Adjusted Map

    Link to image: http://www.eddyslist.com/list/ebay1/adjustedmap1.tiff

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    Last edited by Eddy; 26 January 2012 at 00:07.

  7. #27
    Saab Fan
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    What guys.... No comments?

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  8. #28
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    Just wondering if the OP or Eddy is still active with this - I have a 1987 X1/9 I'm installing LH2.2 in, and am looking for advice on remapping/rescaling for the smaller injectors I will need to run. Pretty much the inverse of the above post...

    I also just bought 16lb Bosch EV1 injectors to replace the old pintle style (I'm assuming here that as long as they are high impedance, they can replace the original style), and a Saab (1986) ECU, since the Volvo unit I have doesn't have the removable eeprom.

    I was looking at this Willem Programmer, which was suggested earlier in this thread, or maybe this one? I only need to be able to program the one style chip used in these...

    I have no experience with reflashing or modding eeproms, so any pointers on that would be great. Wondering also if a specific variant on the chip is required, I see a variety of 2732 chips - D2732A, M2732A-2F1, MBM2732A-35, etc...

    I have built a VEMS system (but not implemented yet), and laptop tune M4.4 on my Volvo, but neither of those are quite the same, so I'd like to take advantage of those who have hands on experience

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    Last edited by lookforjoe; 04 December 2013 at 02:39.

  9. #29
    Sam Carlson
    Tutorial Bot euromobile900's Avatar
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    I have the software and I'd be glad to send you a copy. Can I have your e-mail so I can send it as an attachment?

    I'm not sure about USB programmers and programming voltages. I do know that USB supplies 5v, but it is possible to step this up to other, higher voltages using simple circuitry, which the USB programmer might do. It should say in the USB programmer's specs if it can do a chip like this. I think perhaps googling for more information from non-automotive sources might be the best route to follow to find out this information. One possible route I also thought of was to use an EEPROM chip, which would get electronically erased by the USB programmer, and not need to be UV-erased for programming. That would be nice, and a little more modern.

    The only disclaimer I have is that I've honestly never programmed a chip. I just did all the research and created the thread, then didn't have enough time to complete the project.

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  10. #30
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    Thank you for the reply!

    So you also never got to try the later style injectors, I take it.

    Since the Saab SCU has the chip socket, I'm thinking it may be better to get an Ostrich 2.0 emulator, and go that route - assuming the software can address LH 2.2 appropriately. I've asked about that on the Turbobricks forum.

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